Thursday, March 6, 2014

Classic Ninja (Ninja Build)

Classic Ninja
Human Ninja
A blade in the night.  And a face full of shuriken.

The Classic Ninja dual wields wakizashis and has a number of tricks to gain sneak attack. He also spends a few feats improving his Shuriken abilities, for those times when he really wants to stack on the hurt when enemies are flat footed.

Attributes (with Racial Modifier)

Dex>Con>Cha/Str>Int/Wis

I don’t think putting too many points into Charisma is worth is for Ki. Feel free to switch intelligence and wisdom if you think an additional 5% resist chance is worth one skill point a level.

Put all your attribute gains into Dexterity!

15 Point Buy
STR: 10
DEX: 18 (16+2)
CON: 14
INT: 10
WIS: 8
CHA: 12

20 Point Buy
STR: 10
DEX: 19 (17+2)
CON: 14
INT: 10
WIS: 10
CHA: 12

25 Point Buy
STR: 10
DEX: 20 (18+2)
CON: 14
INT: 10
WIS: 8
CHA: 14


Traits

Adopted -> Carefully Hidden: +1 to Will and other small bonuses.
Reactionary: +2 to Initiative

Feats/Ninja Tricks

1: Weapon Finesse, Two-Weapon Fighting
2: Combat Trick: Weapon Focus: Wakizashi
3: Improved Initiative
4: Flurry of Stars
5: Point Blank Shot
6: Weapon Training: Weapon Focus: Shuriken
7: Rapid Shot
8: Vanishing Trick
9: Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
10: Invisible Blade
11: Dodge
12: Advanced Talents: Crippling Strike
13: Iron Will
14: Evasion
15: Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
16: Improved Evasion
17: Improved Iron Will
18: Fast Stealth
19: Extra Ki
20: Rogue Trick: Ki Pool

Suggested Gear

Nothing terribly unusual here. You want wakizashis that will hit. If you can get agile wakizashis, all the better! And you want your AC to be boosted up.

Sniper Goggles are good, but you probably won’t be able to hit anything from far away with Shuriken.

Amulet of Hidden Strength is great for regaining ki points! +2 Ki points a day for 9,000? Yes Sir!


What the Build Looks Like at...

20 Point Buy, Mundane Gear Only (no magic or masterwork)

Level 1: Attacks with wakizashis at +2/+2 dealing d6 and d6 sneak attack. AC: 18, HP: 11. Initiative: +6, skill points:9.

Level 4: Attacks with wakizashis at +7/+7 dealing d6 and 2d6 sneak attack. Can flurry with Shuriken for +4/+4/+4/+4 dealing d2 and 2d6 sneak attack each. AC: 18, HP: 35. Initiative: +11, skill points:36.

Level 8: Attacks with wakizashis at +10/+10/+5 dealing d6 and 4d6 sneak attack. Can flurry with Shuriken for +7/+7/+7/+7/+7/+2 dealing d2 and 4d6 sneak attack each. AC: 18, HP: 68. Initiative: +11, skill points:72.

Level 12: And here we have it. This is the level at which the Classic Ninja is best. Attacks with wakizashis at +14/+14/+9/+9 dealing d6 and 6d6 sneak attack. Can flurry with Shuriken for +11/+11/+11/+11/+11/+6/+6 dealing d2 and 6d6 sneak attack each. Each sneak attack deals 2 strength damage, meaning you can do 14 strength damage a turn. Invisible Blade means that you can go greater invisible for 12 rounds for one Ki point, guaranteeing sneak attacks. AC: 19, HP: 99. Initiative: +12, skill points:118. (Shuriken DPR while invisible is 51 with on average 4.6 strength damage)

Level 16: Attacks with wakizashis at +17/+17/+12/+12/+7/+7 dealing d6 and 8d6 sneak attack. Can flurry with Shuriken for +14/+14/+14/+14/+14/+9/+9/+4/+4 dealing d2 and 8d6 sneak attack each. Each sneak attack deals 18 strength damage, meaning you can do 12 strength damage. Invisible Blade means that you can go greater invisible for 16 rounds for one Ki point, guaranteeing sneak attacks. AC: 19, HP: 131. Initiative: +13, skill points:144.

Level 20: Attacks with wakizashis at +21/+21/+16/+16/+11/+11 dealing d6 and 10d6 sneak attack. Can flurry with Shuriken for +18/+18/+18/+18/+18/+13/+13/+8/+8 dealing d2 and 10d6 sneak attack each. Each sneak attack deals 2 strength damage. Invisible Blade means that you can go greater invisible for 20 rounds for one Ki point, guaranteeing sneak attacks. AC: 19, HP: 159. Initiative: +13, skill points:184.


Tactics

Early on, get a flanking buddy. In the surprise round, or if you enemy is flat footed, hit them with as many shuriken as you can - it’s glorious.

At level 10, your tactics change for the amazing. Invisible blade gives you greater invisibility for rounds equal to your level: Price is one ki point. You don’t need to worry about flanking for sneak attacks, and you need to worry a lot less about being hit. At level 12, you will be doing 2 points of strength damage per sneak attack, meaning that a full round flurry of shuriken could take 14 points off of a strength score. That will take out some people immediately, and will drop almost everybody in two rounds. It’s awesome.

Guide to the Builds

Comprehensive Guide to the Guides

Zenith's Guide to the Ninja, Part I: Introduction, Attribute, and Races
Zenith's Guide to the Ninja, Part II: Ninja Tricks
Zenith's Guide to the Ninja, Part III: Feats
Zenith's Guide to the Ninja, Part IV: Equipment, Multi-Classing, and Builds

87 comments:

  1. Two things:
    1.) Why do you get sneak attack damage for each shuriken?

    2.) Why do you get 2 strength damage at level 12?

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    1. This is showing the damage you would get with sneak attack. You can either get it from a flat footed enemy, or from being invisible.

      Crippling strike deals 2 strength damage per sneak attack.

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    2. I am curious. Is this build based on a human? I noticed getting two feats at 1st level. Only humans can do that right? I am new to pathfinder sotry if this seems a stupid query.

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    3. Yup, human. It says so up there at the top. Have fun!

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    4. Why is it possible to do 14 Strength damage each round with a 6d6 sneak attack, when each sneak attack only deals 2 strength damage. Wouldn't that be 12 Strength Damage?
      Probably there is something else I'm not aware of... I'm pretty new to this world

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  2. I'm loving this build!

    One question though, math is not my forte and I'm confused with the attack rolls with wakizashis starting Level 8. I'm getting +10/+10/+5 asuming a +5 Dex Mod.

    Where is the -4 in all attacks (from lv8 to lv20) coming from?

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    1. You are very, very right! Not sure what I was doing! It's all corrected above, and the build is that much better. Thanks!

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  3. Your guides on ninja have been great and helpful reads, but I'm unsure how you're able to get such a high AC (18) at level 1?

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    1. Thanks! Looks like Base 10 + 4 (Dexterity) + 4 (Armor from Chain Shirt).

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  4. Don't you need quick draw in order to throw all those shuriken ?

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    1. Shuriken count as ammunition, so you can draw them as a free action. Just like arrows, you can draw as many as you can throw.

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  5. Can you explain how you're getting 6 shuriken attack at 8th level? Flurry of stars gives 2, full round attack gives 2 and Rapid Fire gives 1 extra for the full round. Where is the 6th coming from?

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    1. I'm obviously missing something.

      How is full round attack giving you two bonus attacks?

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    2. You have two attacks at level 8 from +6 BAB. Two weapon fighting gives another attack, Rapid Fire gives another, and Flurry of Starts (the Ninja Ability) gives you two more.

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  6. Oh. That's what I was forgetting. Makes sense now.

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  7. is there a way of getting around spending a crap load of gold on magic Shuriken? for example it's 1000g for 50 +1 Shuriken and at throwing sooo many per turn thats a huge gold sink.

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    1. Can't think of anything, sorry. You might be stuck with mundane Shuriken.

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    2. Buy your wizard friend a 3rd level pearl of power and have him cast Greater Magic Weapon on your shuriken. Thats 50 shuriken a day for the price of 9k and a caster friend.

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    3. Actually you can get +1 Returning Shuriken so when you throw them they return to your hand. You can go farther that +1 when you get more money

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    4. Actually you can get +1 Returning Shuriken so when you throw them they return to your hand. You can go farther that +1 when you get more money

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    5. Unfortunately Shuriken is ammunition, not a weapon, so it can't take the returning aspect.

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  8. Quite a late reply, but this post/guide has been too helpful for me not to at least say as much. The first guide I've seen on any class in a long while to actually show how the class's different parts work and fit /together/, rather than just flatly rating everything in a vacuum, which does wonders for comprehension.

    I do wonder at the rather extreme-looking DEX scores, though-- that's 3-4 points spent to get a +1 moderately earlier, which I'd probably see thrown into WIS to lessen the need for Iron Will. That had me thinking of things like Dodge earlier to make up for the AC difference, and I'm actually curious as to how a slightly different build would work, now...

    Mind you, I've nowhere near the work put into this as you've clearly done, but I'm wondering how it might work to delay shuriken feats/tricks a bit (so long as they all hit around 12, you still get a nice spike from crippling strike and such), and instead getting dodge/mobility/spring attack early, whilst taking the Scout archetype (to get access to easier sneak attacks from levels 4-9, prior to Invisible Blade).

    1: Weapon Finesse, Two Weapon Fighting
    2: *Weapon Training: Weapon Focus: Wakizashi
    3: Dodge
    4: *Flurry of Stars
    5: Mobility
    6: *Combat Trick: Spring Attack
    7: Point Blank Shot
    8: *Vanishing Trick
    9: Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
    10: **Invisible Blade
    11: Rapid Shot
    12: **Advanced Talent: Crippling Strike
    13: Weapon Focus: Shuriken
    14: **Evasion
    15: ???
    16: **Advanced Talent: Feat: ???
    17: ???
    18: **Fast Stealth
    19: ???
    20: **Improved Evasion
    *Ninja Tricks
    **Master Tricks
    ???: Undecided Feats, likely Improved Initative, Greater Two Weapon Fighting, Iron Will, Combat Reflexes, et cetera...

    To start off with the bad, shurikens miss out on Rapid Shot, and you'll be winning initative rolls a bit less without Improved Initative. Mobility is all but a feat-tax, given how great your Acrobatics should be as a Ninja regardless, and the fact that adding Will via WIS means you still need two feats if you wanted that reroll from Improved Iron Will...

    On the bright side, Spring Attack along with the scout's sneak attack options opens up a lot more flexibility in melee, keeping it viable much later into a campaign as you get the chance to Spring Sneak Attack out of melee or the like when lacking the means to full attack with shuriken or the like. If you take Combat Expertise, you get the chance to, thanks to Invisible Blade, set up some great sneak-attacks-of-opportunity, as well, which can add attacks arguably more reliably than Greater TWF might, given the tiny to-hit on those last two attacks.

    I certainly don't have nearly such a breadth of experience with the Ninja class, but I rather like the flavor of a switch-hitter with spring attack, so I'll definitely be trying that variation out, either way-- just felt the need to share after being inspired so by your unbelievably helpful guide. I mean, really, I can't overstate how overwhelmed I was by trying to sift through people's thoughts on every individual talent/feat/trick, and you've really brought it all together into something that just makes sense.

    Excuse that wall-o-text, in any case. Just really excited to give Ninja a try, now. ^^

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    1. Looks like a great build! I'm sure this will be just as good, but here are my two cents.
      Many people initially balk at the high Dex, low will, but think about it this way: Each modifier of Dex gives you +1 to attack (Weapon Focus:Shrunken and Weapon Focus: Wakizashi), AC (Dodge), Reflex (1/2 or Lightning Reflex), and Initiative (1/4 of Improved Initiative). That's equal to about 3.75 Feats. Each point of Wisdom only gives you +1 to Will (1/2 of Iron Will). That's only .5 feats. So it's much more efficient to boost Dexterity and take one feat to Wisdom to make up for it.
      Losing Improved Initiative is a heavy blow - before Invisible Blade, Shrunken are only going to be viable if you beat your opponent in initiative (and a few other rare circumstances.
      Spring attack is fun, but it's not as good for the Ninja as it would be for a Barbarian. The Ninja relies on multiple attacks, so the single attack from Spring attack just isn't as great. That said, I'm sure it will have its uses!
      Great build either way. Have fun, and let me know how it goes!

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    2. I started to play a ninja in a campaign and your guide helped me a lot.
      The first question for me is why you chose human as the race and not halfing.
      You start with one talent more ( for example Weapon Focus: Wakizashi) but if you take halfling you´ll get +1 attack witch means you get Weapon Focus: Wakizashi and Weapon Focus: Shuriken for free so, as human, you loose one talent in the end.
      The second thing i´m asking myself is, if i should choose INT: 8 and WIS: 10 or INT: 10 and WIS: 8.
      Your assumptions is correct, that you are even in talents, but not every skill-point is as importent as the other.
      If you have 8 skillpoints and you get one more, you can only invest this bonus in your 9th best skill wich is not very good if you compare it with a +1 in Will.
      Second thing with WIS is you get +1 perception and only loose points in knowledge.
      The last thing i was thinking about is taking the talent Outflank which i could grab together with 2 other meele charakters (Teamwork), even if it is not that useful with shurikens. I will crit a lot and there is an axe-swinging-fighter who can use attack of opportunity. But I was wondering, which talent I should exchange fot Outflank?

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    3. Good questions.
      I assume you mean feats when you talk about talents. There are a few reasons I prefer the human to the halfing (but only just). The biggest reasons that haltings aren't quite ideal is that they must use small weapons and have a penalty to attack, meaning all of their attacks are going to deal a little less. I'm also not a fan of the slow move speed. But you're good either way.
      I like Int: 10, Wis: 8, but that's just personal preference. At level 10, that will be the difference between +10 skill points vs. +1 will.
      Outflank is a good idea if you can get your allies to take it. Even better would be somehow getting to butterfly's sting - but that requires the 13 Int. Combat expertise. I would consider dropping the shrunken focus entirely and using those talents and feats for other things.

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  9. How do you avoid provoking AoO when throwing Shuriken in melee?

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    1. Don't use Shriken in melee. Use it out of reach with you are invisible or the enemy is flat footed.

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    2. I see.
      How come you get 6 attack in one round? 2 for lvl 8 + 2 for flurry of stars + 1 for rapid shot. That only adds up to 5?

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    3. Two Weapon Fighting gives us another shuriken.

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    4. Shouldn't that result in 4 throw on lvl 4? 2 for Two Weapon Fighting + 2 for Flurry of Stars?

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    5. Yes, but I think I decided that that would bring the attack mod too low to hit anything anyway. But good point, I'll add it in.

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    6. Is it any good idea to take one or two levels of fighter, giving extra combat feat and proficiency with martial weapons?

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    7. I love dipping into Fighter (or Paladin), but you don't need to do it for the martial weapons. Wakazashi is pretty awesome. Take a look here for multi-classing suggestions: http://zenithgames.blogspot.com/2014/08/zeniths-guide-to-ninja-part-iv.html

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  10. Most campaigns offen last only until lvl 7-8. Is there anyway you take "Vanishing Trick" earlier?

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    1. Unfortunately, there isn't. However, if your party has plenty of flanking partners, then the ninja is still a viable option. If you would be the only melee character, then you may want to consider another class.

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    2. I'm thinking 'bout switching #2 with #8 i your build. Should I not do that?

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    3. I'm sorry, I thought you meant invisible blade! Certainly, you can do that! I would actually recommend that you get rid of flurry of starts, point blank shot, and rapid shot, and replace them with feats and tricks that buff your wakizashi.

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    4. Would you say that the ninja trick: "Combat trick" can be taking multiple times?

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    5. Unfortunately not. "Unless otherwise noted, a ninja cannot select an individual ninja trick more than once."

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  11. How do you get Improved Evasion? You've already used Advanced Talent once to get Crippling Strike, and I thought you couldn't take a trick more than once.

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  12. One small question, what armor do you use level 1 ? :)

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    1. Chain shirt, I think. Might have to save up a little for it to start, but it's only 100 gp.

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  13. Hello ! Don't know if you will answer me, but i try my chance.
    There is few things i don't understand. First, lvl 4, how you manage to get 4 shuriken launch at +4 ? Considering the throw take your highest BAB mod, it will be only +3, then -2 from the flurry of star, so +1/+1/+1/+1 and then again -2 so -1/-1/-1/-1 because of TWS. I must be missing something but i don't know what. Shuriken arn't affected by Weapon Finess, are they ? Same question for the next mod, how do you end up with +11/+11/+11/+11/+11/+6/+6 while having -2 -2 with TWF, -2 on all launch by quick shot, -2 by flurring of star.. You got my point. Could you explain that more precisely pls ? Thanks you a lot for this amazing build, just need to understand that :D

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    1. After math, still there this is making no-sense to me.
      Lvl 4, supposing you'll get dex mod, you end up with 5 +3 = +8.
      You launch the 2 first, it's end up +6/+6 then use FoS, These two end up +4/+4 and the second one only take the highest BAB, so +3/+3 and end up doing +1/+1, no ?

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    2. Let's see - At 4th level, with TWF and Flurry of Stars we throw 4 shuriken.

      These are ranged weapons, so our calculation is: 5 (Dex) + 3 (BAB) - 2 (TWF) - 2 (FoS) = +4.

      Make sense?

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    3. It does. Didn't realised you calculate it this way. Thanks you very much, i'm ready to play this AWESOME build :D

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    4. My pleasure. Have a good time!

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  14. Nice build! Makes me think of making a ninja PC for practicing some melee tactics (I've always played either a spellcaster or a longbow ranged hitter).

    However, with the starting gear, what kind of armor works best for ninjas? I always chose leather armor, since despite the +2 bonus to AC, it has no armor check penalty (which works wonders for a class that utilizes Stealth)

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    1. It depends on your Dexterity modifier. If you have a Dex Mod of +4, then go with a Chain Shirt. If you have a Dex Mod of +5, then studded leather is best.

      The -1 or -2 penalty to Stealth won't hurt you nearly as much as lowering your AC by 2 or 3. You are good at sneaking. You are not so good at surviving damage. Want to Stealth more? Then live to do it!

      Have fun in melee! Just make sure you have another buddy or two to coordinate flanking!

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  15. Where does the +2 to damage come from at level 1

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    1. There's no +2 damage. You are attacking with two iterative attacks: +2/+2.

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    2. So is it +2 to hit?

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    3. So where are you getting the +2 to hit?

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    4. +4 Dex - 2 for Two Weapon Fighting.

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  16. Hi,
    Thanks for the great looking build. I'm trying to follow it as best I can though I stumbled across it after 4th level so it's a bit mixed up. Nevertheless, I'm curious as to your interpretation of the sneak attack rules.

    When do you apply sneak attack damage when you say, for example at level 8:
    "Can flurry with Shuriken for +7/+7/+7/+7/+7/+2 dealing d2 and 4d6 sneak attack each." Can you break it down?

    Essentially, Do I apply sneak attack damage for every attack roll?

    So for the above, I would need to roll to hit 6x times and for each of those 6 times, I would roll 4d6 sneak attack damage? (i.e. 6d2 plus 24d6, assuming they all hit)

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    1. You apply sneak attack to every attack where it is relevant. If you are invisible, or if the enemy is blinded, then you keep getting sneak attack. If the enemy is flatfooted, then you keep getting it. If you are flanking an enemy (not possible with Shriken), then you keep getting it. However, if you are attacking from stealth, you break stealth with your first attack and only get it on the first attack.

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  17. Hey Zenith! thanks for the awesome guide, it's been a lot of help. i have a few questions:

    Why is 12 cha enough? do ki tricks suck that much? i thought getting an extra attack at full BAB was awesome (though i'm relatively new to PF with 0 ninja experience)
    this is the statline i'm going to go with (as a halfling): 10, 18, 14, 10, 8, 16
    am i falling into a trap by being too fixated on ki tricks, and how important is that extra point of dex?

    second: you take a lot of ranged feats in this build, but no Precise Shot. is that because you only ever use shurikens in the first round, when no one's engaged yet?

    lastly, my ninja is going to be played in PFS; is it worth buying a lvl 1 wand of vanish? my idea is to have someone else use it on me, then in the 1 round make a double move action to get into position

    Thanks! :)

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    1. oh, also: i've taken the Fleet Of Foot racial trait, so i move 30' :)

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    2. Howdy!

      Take a look at the guide for the ability score analysis. Extra Dexterity or Con gets you way more than an extra point of Charisma.

      We don't have many extra feats to go around, and we need both point blank shot and rapid shot. There just isn't space for another.

      If you have time before combat, then you can certainly try with the wand. It might be difficult coordinating though.

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  18. hey Zenith.
    i have a question too. In lvl 12 u say we can do 7 attacks with shuriken and do the 2 strengh dmg per hit(flurry of stars,crippling strike), but we can only use one ninjatrick in a round right?! so how it works?

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  19. hey Zenith.
    i have a question too. In lvl 12 u say we can do 7 attacks with shuriken and do the 2 strengh dmg per hit(flurry of stars,crippling strike), but we can only use one ninjatrick in a round right?! so how it works?

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  20. I believe that you can perform as many ninja tricks in a round as you like.

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  21. Love the build! Well designed, well explained. I'm trying to find a way to carry multiple shurikens so I can sell free action draw to my DM. They're sharp & need to be picked up carefully so it's tricky. Bag of Holding/Handy Haversack probably won't do. Need to bring at least 20 into an encounter, maybe more at high level. I'm looking at wearing 2 modified mundane bandoliers, but not sure if DM will buy it. What's your solution?

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    1. Shuriken are ammunition. You can draw them as a free action by default!

      Enjoy!

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  22. I'm going to play a classic ninja in a campaign, starting at level 1, with normal starting wealth (average 140gp). Studded leather or chain shirt, 2 wakizashis, some shurikens (say 10) weighs 25 or 30 lbs, too close to the light load limit for Str 10 (33 lbs) to allow other needed gear. The penalty for medium encumbrance is pretty severe (max Dex to AC 3). I'm considering haramaki armor to save weight (& gp). How did you avoid this problem?

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  23. how do you get 68 HP at level 8?

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    1. Let's see:

      Level 1: 8HD + 1 (favored class bonus) +2(Constitution) = 11.
      Subsequent levels: 5 (HD) +1 (favored class bonus) + 2 (constitution) = 8 per level.
      Result = 67.

      Not sure where the extra point comes from!

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  24. How do you have 2 attacks with the Wakizashi at lv 4? and 4 attacks with the shuriken also at lv 4?

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    1. Two weapon fighting gives you an extra attack withboth Wakizashi and Shuriken. Flurry of stars gives you two extra attacks with shuriken.

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  25. If I wanted to change Shuriken out and replace them with Pistols. Could you help with that build?

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    1. Hmm - I'm honestly not an expert with firearms. It would be far trickier to do, and would require some reloading shenanigans, as well as a handful of extra feats.

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    2. oh man... do you know of any links that seem great for firearms? ive never played with guns before and our DM has made guns rather common. I would appreciate any tips.

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    3. I would probably start with some of the guides on Gunslingers here: http://zenithgames.blogspot.com/2012/11/the-comprehensive-pathfinder-guides.html, and also check out the gunslinger builds here: http://zenithgames.blogspot.jp/2013/01/guide-to-builds.html. You should also post on the paizo forum for advice. Good luck!

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  26. would you mind explaining how you got your initiative so high?

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    1. The Reactionary Trait gives +2 to initiative plus your dex mod is +6

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  27. How does the favored class bonus give you +1 HP. Isn't that the Ranger class bonus?

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  28. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  29. Hey Zenith, quick question. Would it not be better to take the ninja trick Shadowblade instead of weapon focus wakizashi? With Shadowblade, as a swift action, you can summon a weapon made of shadow that has +1 atk and +1 dmg per 3 levels.

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    1. Interesting! But it's a 3rd party publisher thing, so it won't be included in most games.

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  30. why is no one putting in precise shot? -4 to hit is a pretty big deal considering you should be floating around the fringes of melee combat. I get they are flat footed if your invisible but still the penalty basically negates the flat footed

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    1. oops sorry ive just read your reply to an earlier query about precise shot. I still think the -4 penalty is just to big to gloss over tho. i dropped iron will for it myself but thats just a personal choice. love your guides even for someone who is a veteran player they have some great ideas

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  31. Hi i really like the build but i think you cant take advanced talents more than once because the ninja trick says :Unless otherwise noted, a ninja cannot select an individual ninja trick more than once.
    So?

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    1. I don't think this takes more than one advanced talent.

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